Arhiva za 27. Marta 2013.

Moj sagovornik mi je predložio da ovaj intervju objavim i na nekom drugom jeziku kako bi ga mogli eventualno pročitati i drugi koji ne potječu sa prostora bivše Jugoslavije. Složio sam se sa procjenom gospodina Grahovca da neke teme na koje smo razgovarali izlaze iz okvira prostora bivše zajedničke nam države, pa čak i Evrope, te sam intervju preveo na engleski jezik. Objavljujem ga u obje verzije.

My interlocutor suggested me to publish this interview and in another language so it could possibly read and others that do not come from the former Yugoslavia. I agreed with the assessment of Mr. Grahovac to some topics that we discussed outside the scope of the former our common country, and even Europe, and I translated the interview into English.  So, I am publishing it in both versions.

bgPoslije raspada VU i SSSR-a, nama se desila jos veća nedaća. Naime, višedecenijsku doktrinu izvoza ideologije i oružja, Ruska Federacija je zamijenila sasvim novom doktrinom osvajanja prostora, prvenstveno iz geopolitičkih razloga. Spajanjem okrutnih KGB-ovaca i novostvorenih tajkuna, nastali su oligarsi, koji su prvenstveno u službi ruske politike. Ofanzivno su krenuli na izvoz prljavog kapitala. Korumpirali su snažnu lobisticku mrežu na Zapadu. Uspjeli su da prljavi kapital registruju na Zapadu i da ga kao “zapadni” vraćaju na Balkan, prvenstveno u države sa većinskim pravoslavnim stanovništvom. Ovu geopolitičku zamku mnogi još uvijek nijesu shvatili……Tačno je, bio sam pomoćnik Načelnika GŠ VJ za RV i PVO, od 01.01.1998. do 09.04.1999. godine. Osuđujuću i oslobađajuću presudu bilo koga (pa i generala Perišića) ne komentarišem iz razloga što sam odbio da budem svjedok i optužbe i odbrane za bilo koga od njih……U ime Vojske SRJ bio sam određen za člana delegacije za pregovore u Dejtonu. Tamo sam bio tačno jedan sat i 40 minuta, kada mi je prenešeno naređenje predsjednika Miloševića da se vratim, što sam i učinio. Pretpostavljam zbog čega, ali to ne bih komentarisao. Iskreno mi je žao, jer bih u izuzetno bogatu ličnu biografiju mogao upisati da sam bio učesnik konferencije koja je zaustavila krvavi rat, koji su, u ime geopolitičkih ciljeva, vodili udruženi nacionalisti, državne i vojne službe i mafije, a u kojem je masovno stradao nedužni narod, nadmudren i zloupotrebljen od prethodno nabrojanih……Organizovani kriminal i korupcija danas su postali gornje geopolitičko sredstvo. Iznad je onog nuklearnog. Mafije, kao vojska organizovanog kriminala i korupcije, nastoje da od zvaničnih država (uključujući i velike sile) preotmu i politiku i geopolitiku…….Srbiju treba izučavati i kao pozitivan fenomen. Naime, bez obzira na tvrdu politiku, koja je uglavnom okrenuta prema Istoku, njeni građani sve više imaju demokratskog kapaciteta za njen evropski put. Na svu sreću, bliži se završetak vjekovnog političkog lutanja Srbije. Ne isključujem mogućnost da neko od njenih političara koji vode proevropsku borbu mogu biti životno ugroženi……Srbiju treba izučavati i kao pozitivan fenomen. Naime, bez obzira na tvrdu politiku, koja je uglavnom okrenuta prema Istoku, njeni građani sve više imaju demokratskog kapaciteta za njen evropski put. Na svu sreću, bliži se završetak vjekovnog političkog lutanja Srbije. Ne isključujem mogućnost da neko od njenih političara koji vode proevropsku borbu mogu biti životno ugroženi……I BiH je dio geopolitičke zamke. Situacija u BiH će se značajno početi rješavati u pozitivnom pravcu onda kada se Srbija ustabili na svom evropskom putu. Ovakva BiH je bogom data da bude sredstvo u geopolitičkoj areni. Dio stanovništva BiH želi evropske integracije, većina mojih sunarodnika su se zalijepili za Srbiju i Rusiju, a dio bošnjačkog korpusa je okrenut prema Orijentu. Takav politički ambijent potpuno odgovara nacionalistima i klerikalcima, a posebno raznim mafijama i mešetarima obavještajnih i bezbjednosnih službi…….

 Gospodine Grahovac. Vi javno tvrdite da je “zlo došlo sa Istoka”, odnosno da je KGB, a ne Zapad, odigrao ključnu ulogu u razbijanju SFRJ. Hoćete li i za naše čitatelje obrazložiti tu tezu?

GRAHOVAC: Na ex-Yu prostoru se decenijama podastirala teza da će Zapad razbiti SFRJ. I u vrijeme njenog razbijanja, i dan-danas, ta teza se stalno pothranjuje. I tada i danas sam uporan u dokazivanju potpuno suprotne teze. Naime, po svim parametrima koji definišu ciljeve EU, od njenog formiranja pa do dan-danas, te po većini temeljnih principa na kojima EU počiva, SFRJ je mnogo toga imala. Pogledajmo samo dvije temeljne vrijednosti EU. To su antifašizam i poštivanje različitosti. Pa upravo su to bile temeljne vrijednosti bivše SFRJ. Trebalo je na bolji način dograditi političke slobode i neke oblasti koje se odnose na ljudska prava.

 KGBRazbijanje SFRJ je prvenstveno geopolitička priča. Bivši SSSR ni po koju cijenu nije htio napustiti Balkan. KGB je znao da model SFRJ u mnogim elementima može poslužiti budućem modelu EU. Znali su da Sloveniju i Hrvatsku (nakon odbijanja svakog dogovora od strane Srbije za preuređenje odnosa u Federaciji) ništa ne može zaustaviti na njihovom putu prema EU. Znali su za crnogorsko-srpsku mitomaniju o sveslavjanskoj pravoslavnoj uvezanosti. Znali su za postojanje tri velikodržavna projekta (velikosrpski, velikohrvatski i velikoalbanski). Znali su za povezanost vojnih i državnih službi sa mafijama na Balkanu. Znali su da lako mogu pronaći nacionalne lidere Srba i Hrvata, koji će na populizmu, sve prethodno rečeno, iskoristiti za svoje vlastodržačke ambicije.

Sve navedeno je postalo modelom razbijanja Jugoslavije od strane KGB-a. Ne treba zanemariti da su pojedini političari sa Zapada, svojim svjesnim ili nesvjesnim postupcima, išli na ruku procesu razbijanja SFRJ.

Poslije raspada VU i SSSR-a, nama se desila jos veća nedaća. Naime, višedecenijsku doktrinu izvoza ideologije i oružja, Ruska Federacija je zamijenila sasvim novom doktrinom osvajanja prostora, prvenstveno iz geopolitičkih razloga. Spajanjem okrutnih KGB-ovaca i novostvorenih tajkuna, nastali su oligarsi, koji su prvenstveno u službi ruske politike. Ofanzivno su krenuli na izvoz prljavog kapitala. Korumpirali su snažnu lobisticku mrežu na Zapadu. Uspjeli su da prljavi kapital registruju na Zapadu i da ga kao “zapadni” vraćaju na Balkan, prvenstveno u države sa većinskim pravoslavnim stanovništvom. Ovu geopolitičku zamku mnogi još uvijek nijesu shvatili.

 Da li je tačno da ste bili pomoćnik Načelnika Generalstaba VJ, generala Momčila Perišića, te kako komentirate prvo njegovu osuđujuću, a potom oslobađajuću presudu u Hagu?                                                    

GRAHOVAC: Tačno je, bio sam pomoćnik Načelnika GŠ VJ za RV i PVO, od 01.01.1998. do 09.04.1999. godine. Osuđujuću i oslobađajuću presudu bilo koga (pa i generala Perišića) ne komentarišem iz razloga što sam odbio da budem svjedok i optužbe i odbrane za bilo koga od njih. Dva su razloga za to. Prvo, ja se borim protiv pogrešne politike ili pogrešnih postupaka lica dok ona imaju i vlast i moć. Kada prestanu biti vlast i moć, njihovim pogrešnim postupcima će se baviti neke druge institucije, a težište svoje borbe onda prebacujem na pogrešne postupke drugih lica koja tada imaju i vlast i moć. Drugo, nekom državniku ili generalu nijesu potrebni svjedoci odbrane, ukoliko ima čiste ruke i mirnu savjest. Tada će se on moći sam odbraniti.

 Bili ste i u Daytonu, u jesen 1995. na pregovorima za uspostavljanje mira u Bosni i Hercegovini. Da li ste učestvovali u tim pregovorima, odnosno koliko ste se zadržali u toj američkoj vojnoj bazi, u državi Ohio?

GRAHOVAC: U ime Vojske SRJ bio sam određen za člana delegacije za pregovore u Dejtonu. Tamo sam bio tačno jedan sat i 40 minuta, kada mi je prenešeno naređenje predsjednika Miloševića da se vratim, što sam i učinio. Pretpostavljam zbog čega, ali to ne bih komentarisao. Iskreno mi je žao, jer bih u izuzetno bogatu ličnu biografiju mogao upisati da sam bio učesnik konferencije koja je zaustavila krvavi rat, koji su, u ime geopolitičkih ciljeva, vodili udruženi nacionalisti, državne i vojne službe i mafije, a u kojem je masovno stradao nedužni narod, nadmudren i zloupotrebljen od prethodno nabrojanih.

Kako je, zapravo, tekla vaša karijera u JNA od 1990. do penzionisanja, naprimjer?

GRAHOVAC: Od 1988. do 1991. godine, bio sam načelnik sistema vazduhoplovne podrške u Komandi RV i PVO. Komandant RV i PVO tada je bio general Tus. Od 11.09.1991. do 31.03.1992. godine, bio sam komandant Vazduhoplovne vojne akademije, koja je tada bazirala u Sarajevu. Prvog aprila 1992. godine (zbog brutalne odmazde prema meni) formacijsko mjesto na kojem sam se nalazio je ugašeno, tako da sam do 17.02.1994. godine bio u školstvu, ali bez postavljenja na dužnost. Po tada važećim propisima, ko nema postavljenje u trajanju od 6 mjeseci, služba mu automatski prestaje. Meni služba nije prestala, iako sam skoro dvije godine bio bez postavljenja, jer su me željeli držati pod vojnom kontrolom. Napominjem da sam, od 01.04.1992. godine pa sve do prestanka vojne službe, službovao u garnizonu Beograd. Od 17.02.1994. godine (kada Milošević uzima otklon od rukovodstva RS i kada sa administracijom SAD-a intenzivira pregovore), ukazom predsjednika SRJ, Zorana Lilića, postavljen sam za komandanta Vazduhoplovnog korpusa i na toj dužnosti sam bio do 31.12.1997. godine. Dužnost pomoćnika Načelnika GŠ sam već objasnio. Deveti april 1999. godine je bio moj poslednji dan u Vojsci. Nakon toga (vrijeme ratnog stanja) pa sve do penzionisanja te iste godine, bio sam izmješten u jedan civilni objekat u centru Beograda, bez bilo kakvog kontakta sa bilo kim iz Vojske.

Također, vaša je znakovita tvrdnja da mafija i korupcija vode države danas. Je li to “specijalitet” samo balkanskih država ili je tako na globalnom nivou?

GRAHOVAC: Ne, nije to “specijalitet” Balkana. To je tužna realnost svih nedemokratskih režima i država u kojima je vlast nesmjenjljiva. Organizovani kriminal i korupcija danas su postali gornje geopolitičko sredstvo. Iznad je onog nuklearnog. Mafije, kao vojska organizovanog kriminala i korupcije, nastoje da od zvaničnih država (uključujući i velike sile) preotmu i politiku i geopolitiku. Zbog ogromne količine novca, kojom raspolažu, razvijaju veoma široke lobističke mreže, što danas postaje najopasnija korupcija na planeti. Uspijevaju da te lobističke mreže razviju i u EU i na prostoru Sjeverne Amerike. Zbog toga, nedemokratski i autokratski režimi i uspijevaju da se tako dugo održe. Lobiranje je postala osnova korporativnog biznisa, u kome špekulativni poslovi postaju glavni alati. Već imamo opaku spregu između nedemokratskih režima, korporativnog biznisa (sa bankama kao ključnim igračima) i mafija, kao vojske organizovanog kriminala i korupcije. Neoliberalni kapitalizam je postao brutalan, vulgaran i neodrživ. On je danas sistem blagostanja za političke strukture koje su spregnute sa organizovanim kriminalom i korupcijom.

Hoćete li i za naše čitatelje objasniti svoju tezu o “građanskoj” i “političkoj svijesti” u Srbiji i koja će prevagnuti o ovom geopolitičkom momentu?

GRAHOVAC: Srbija je više od dva vijeka raspolućena i državno i politički. Za sve to vrijeme, njeni građani vode borbu da ostanu u prostoru gdje Srbija pripada i geografski i civilizacijski – a to je Evropa. U isto vrijeme njena politička elita je bila okrenuta na Istok. I SPC je bila koherentna sa političkim elitama i neraskidivo vezana za rusku pravoslavnu crkvu. Kroz istoriju je bilo političkih ličnosti koje su nastojale okrenuti Srbiju ka Evropi. Miloš, Mihajlo, Milan i Aleksandar Obrenović, Aleksandar Karađorđević i Zoran Đinđić su političku orjentaciju prema Evropi platili ili glavom ili izgnanstvom. I patrijarh Varnava, koji je želio izmirenje sa Svetom stolicom, je platio istu cijenu.

Manje je bitno da li se Zoran Đinđić previše približio kriminogenim strukturama ili je dozvolio da se one približe njemu. Bitno je da je postao svjedokom „biznisa“ tih struktura, a mafije svjedoke ne ljube. Za mnoge političare na Zapadnom Balkanu to može biti značajno upozorenje.

Srbiju treba izučavati i kao pozitivan fenomen. Naime, bez obzira na tvrdu politiku, koja je uglavnom okrenuta prema Istoku, njeni građani sve više imaju demokratskog kapaciteta za njen evropski put. Na svu sreću, bliži se završetak vjekovnog političkog lutanja Srbije. Ne isključujem mogućnost da neko od njenih političara koji vode proevropsku borbu mogu biti životno ugroženi.

crna rukaBdije li nad Srbijom još uvijek “crna ruka” i ko bi se nje u aktuelnom trenutku tamo trebao naročito pripaziti (Bože sačuvaj, ne prizivam je ni tamo niti bilo gdje)?

GRAHOVAC: Nažalost, bdije. U riziku mogu biti političari koji vode beskompromisnu borbu za evropsku integraciju Srbije.

 Kako vidite budućnost Bosne i Hercegovine, upravo s geopolitičkog stanovišta? Ključno je pitanje, zapravo, hoće li BiH preživjeti i kako?

GRAHOVAC: I BiH je dio geopolitičke zamke. Situacija u BiH će se značajno početi rješavati u pozitivnom pravcu onda kada se Srbija ustabili na svom evropskom putu. Ovakva BiH je bogom data da bude sredstvo u geopolitičkoj areni. Dio stanovništva BiH želi evropske integracije, većina mojih sunarodnika su se zalijepili za Srbiju i Rusiju, a dio bošnjačkog korpusa je okrenut prema Orijentu. Takav politički ambijent potpuno odgovara nacionalistima i klerikalcima, a posebno raznim mafijama i mešetarima obavještajnih i bezbjednosnih službi.

Za opstanak BiH, čini mi se, postoji samo jedna formula. Uz proces stabilizacije Srbije (a ona je otpočela), treba inicirati politički proces u BiH, koji bi sadržavao tri strateška zadatka. Prvo, zbog straha za opstanak BiH, na sceni imamo opštu centralizaciju svega i svačega, a to proizvodi različite oblike napetosti do samog pucanja. Treba otvoriti potpuno suprotan proces, u pravcu opšte decentralizacije i Sarajeva i Banjaluke i Mostara. Stalno treba potencirati da vlast pripada građanima u lokalnoj samoupravi i da centralizacija vlasti mnogo košta, što plaćaju ti isti građani iz lokalne samouprave. Drugo, samo troentitetska BiH ima perspektivu za opstanak, ali i tu treba potencirati da svaka birokratija (pa i ona entitetska) mnogo košta, a malo daje. Važno je da i to građani počnu uočavati. Treće, BiH je kroz svoju istoriju najstabilnije trajala onda kada je bila u okviru nekog oblika Yugo zajednice. Zbog toga treba pokrenuti novu regionalnu inicijativu za formiranje Yugo regije, sastavljene od država nastalih od SFRJ, ne urušavajući teritorijalni i državno-pravni status tih država. Ubijeđen sa, da je to najperspektivniji projekat EU od njenog osnivanja. Došlo bi se do opšte relaksacije na Zapadnom Balkanu u svim oblastima društvenog i političkog života. Yugo regija (u okviru EU) bi bio milenijumski projekat, koji bi trajno stabilizirao Zapadni Balkan.

Bosna ima političare kakve ima, a i njeno ustavno rješenje je više nego “luđačka košulja” po kojem ne može funkcionirati niti može učiniti značajnije iskorake u izbornim ciklusima, pa i zbog takvog Ustava. Ko onda može presjeći bh. gordijev čvor? Međunarodna zajednica ovakva kakva jest, EU, SAD…., ko?

GRAHOVAC: Gordijev čvor BiH će presjeći njeni građani, jer će (u procesu koji zagovaram, a kojeg sam objasnio u prethodnom odgovoru) oni sve više spoznavati da je za njihov kvalitetan život najvažniji dobar odnos u lokalu, a da birokratija mnogo košta. Bez obzira na vjeru i naciju, oni će se posvetiti razvoju njihove lokalne samouprave. Shvatiće da su entitetske i centralne birokratije pijavice koje samo isisavaju njihov život. Građani će postati otporni na populizam koji proizvode kvazipolitičari, nacionalisti, klerikalci i mafijaši. U ovako otvorenom procesu, građani će imati podršku i EU i SAD, pa će, prethodno navedeni, konačno početi da napuštaju BiH.

Milorad Dodik se, osim gotovo svakodnevnog negiranja BiH, zalaže i za njenu demilitarizaciju. Hoće li takve priče konačno poklopiti članstvo BiH u NATO savezu a do tada jesu li one samo puste želje, pogotovo u kontekstu nekih događanja krajem prošlog stoljeća i u kojem su učestvovale i zemlje iz regiona? Da budem jasniji: može li samo delimitarizacija BiH, a ne i Srbije, Crne Gore i Hrvatske, naprimjer?

GRAHOVAC: Pojam „demilitarizacija“ se često koristi na ex-Yu prostoru. Nažalost, ovaj pojam se nedovoljno razumije. Na ex-Yu prostoru je značajno reducirano brojno stanje vojnih efektiva, iako ima još prostora za smanjenje. Po mom ubjeđenju to nije kriterij za pojam militarizacije ili demilitarizacije. Suština je u nečemu drugom. Naime, mi na Zapadnom Balkanu imamo izrazito visok stepen militantnosti duha građana – civila, a posebno je to izraženo kod nekih političara, klerikalaca i po pravilu, kod svih nacionalista. A svih njih je na našem prostoru i previše. Ako tome dodamo i nepoznatu količinu oružja i municije kojom građani raspolažu, a izvan je kontrole države, onda imamo razloga za brigu. Stara je formula da ratove ne proizvode dobri vojnici, nego militantni civili. A pri pojavi takvog oblika rata, pojavni oblici istog su: najprije se pojave popovi (sveštenstva različitih religija), topovi i na kraju lopovi. Sve to smo već imali ili još uvijek imamo. Kada se neki prostor počne prepoznavati po višku politike, višku religije, višku naoružanja i višku socijalnih frustracija, pojačavaju se razlozi za brigu. BiH se, nažalost, nalazi u višku svega nabrojanog. Demilitarizacija regiona (onako kako je ja podrazumijevam), će se završiti ulaskom našeg regiona u EU i NATO. Ne treba imati dilemu da će se to uskoro i desiti.

Zalažete se i za redefiniranje uloge terorizma. Zašto se zalažete i treba li tom pojmu ikakav prefiks? Kome je trebao do sada?

GRAHOVAC: Nužno je redefinisanje klasične teorije o terorizmu. Terorizam je do sada mogao biti tretiran kao politički ili religijski. U vremenu koje dolazi, terorizam će sve više biti sredstvo u organizovanom kriminalu i korupciji. Zašto? Zato što je bilo kakav oblik nemira najbolji ambijent za ordiniranje mafija. Jer, kada se negdje desi teroristički akt, prateće stanje je skoro uvijek identično: vlast je trenutno zbunjena šta treba da preduzme, građani su uplašeni, a ishod borbe je neizvjestan. Zar upravo to, nije ambijent za ordiniranje mafija. Zato u budućem vremenu na terorizam treba gledati kao na akta u organizaciji mafija i sa njima povezanih političara, a sve u cilju njihovog političkog preživljavanja i njihovog mafijaškog biznisa. Količina terorizma (u klasičnom poimanju) će se smanjivati, ali će se onaj koji je povezan sa organizovanim kriminalom i korupcijom, siguran sam, povećavati.

 “Antifašizam je protjeran iz srpskog etnosa”, izjavili ste nedavno na jednoj bh. televiziji. Ko podgrijava fašizam među pripadnicima srpskog etnosa u BiH, odnosno retrogradne ideje među pripadnicima ostalih konstitutivnih naroda u BiH?

GRAHOVAC: To je posljedični učinak proizvođača rata koji nam se desio, a koji je imao geopolitičke ciljeve. Svjedoci smo da (pored Crnogoraca) niko nije imao takvo antifašističko nasljeđe kao što su ga imali Srbi iz BiH.  A antifašizam je (kako sam već naglasio) temeljna evropska vrijednost. Tu vrijednost je neko veoma smišljeno (da bi na populizmu gradio politiku) pretvorio u svoju suprotnost. Neofašizam opasno ugrožava etnos u BiH, kome i sam pripadam.

Usuđujem se tvrditi da su se naši Muslimani – Bošnjaci mogli svrstati u najemancipovanije Muslimane svijeta (po kriterijumima evropske ili sjevernoameričke civilizacije). I tu se (iz istih razloga) desila inverzija. U tom supstratu u BiH danas imamo drastične kulturološke kontraste. Već imamo pojave od kojih se treba plašiti.

Naši Hrvati iz BiH decenijama su važili za najbolje preduzetnike na evropskom prostoru. Imali su izrazito visok stepen međusobne solidarnosti. Danas je među njima stasao određen broj tipičnih tajkuna, a veći broj pučanstva živi veoma oskudno. Njihova tradicionalna međusobna solidarnost je nestala. I to je jedan od pokazatelja da u BiH imamo i društveno i političko i kulturološko iščašenje. Pogledajmo još jedan parametar. Bošnjaci i Hrvati uglavnom su ljuti na Milorada Dodika. Siguran sam da će se on u budućnosti suočiti sa odgovornošću jačeg intenziteta. Ali, imamo i činjenicu da ti isti Hrvati i Bošnjaci žale što nemaju svoga „Dodika“. Zar i to nije pokazatelj političkog iščašenja i opšteg licemerja. Sve to će se povoljno završiti ukoliko BiH bude išla putem kako sam u prethodnim odgovorima objasnio.

Šta se desilo sa socijaldemokratijom u BiH, odnosno zemljama istočnog Balkana?

GRAHOVAC: Na cjelokupnom ex-Yu prostoru imamo problem sa partijama socijaldemokratske orjentacije. Svaka SDP se zalijepila za neku od partija koja ima spregu sa organizovanim kriminalom i korupcijom i koja ima vlast ili je u prilici da je osvoji. Pošto SDP nemaju brojno članstvo i brojno biračko tijelo, one, po pravilu, ne idu same na izbore, nego su skoro uvijek u koaliciji sa partijama u kojima najvažnije poteze povlače tajkuni. Da bi partije (koje su svezane sa organizovanim kriminalom i korupcijom) fingirale demokratičnost i tobožnju lijevu orjentaciju, omogućavaju tobožnjim socijaldemokratama da značajno profitiraju. Kako? Skoro svi članovi SDP-a su, maltene, funkcioneri od lokalne samouprave do vrha države. Tužna je činjenica da na ex-Yu prostoru nema niti jedne političke partije koja štiti interese radnika i seljaka. Socijaldemokratske partije na Zapadnom Balkanu danas imaju najveći stepen odgovornosti zbog ovolike količine organizovanog kriminala i korupcije.

Dnevni avaz je pisao da ste Vi bili Miloševićev general, pozivajući se na tekst u podgoričkoj “Republici” iz 2006. Šta se, zapravo, desilo i jeste li reagirali , odnosno uputili demanti i kome?

avaz o bgGRAHOVAC: Dok je Milošević bio vlast i moć, kroz institucije sistema (a poslije prestanka aktivne vojne službe i javno) sam vodio borbu protiv te politike. Tada su mnogi politički kontrolisani mediji o meni pisali kao o izdajniku srpskog naroda i NATO plaćeniku. Zamjerali su mi što sam se tako snažno suprotstavljao Miloševićevoj ratnoj politici. Poslije odlaska Miloševića sa vlasti, ja sam ušao u otvorenu borbu protiv sprege političara i mafije. Od tada, ti isti mediji, na mene su kidisali, ali etiketirajući me Miloševićevim generalom. Logično je, jer su ti isti mediji samo promijenili pokrovitelja. Ta grupacija medija je potpuno u funkciji političkih elita koje su povezane sa organizovanim kriminalom i korupcijom. Kada u svojim javnim istupima pritisnem nekoga od njih (uglavnom u Crnoj Gori), odmah se, u tačno određenim medijima, pojavi nečiji tekst iz Sarajeva, Beograda i Novog Sada. Sadržina tih tekstova je skoro identična onom kojim su me javno etiketirali general Pavković, Prvoslav Davinić i Vukašin Maraš. Od njih se danas svi distanciraju, ali njihovi tekstovi, koji su proizvedeni u vojnoj službi bezbjednosti, postali su trajno mafijaško vlasništvo. Jedna grupa autora takvih tekstova je identifikovana. Jednu grupu tih medija, javno sam prozvao i nazvao ih inkubatorima neofašizma na Zapadnom Balkanu.

Kada je crnogorska vlast htjela da se obračuna sa svojim kritičarima, fantomski se pojavio list „Republika“, a u kojem je na najprljaviji način vršeno blaćenje kritičara crnogorske vlasti. Na početku se nije moglo utvrditi ko stoji iza toga lista. Kada im se ušlo u trag, „Republika“ je odjednom nestala, a pojavio se list „Publika“. U toj novini je nastavljeno još prljavije blaćenje kritičara crnogorske vlasti. Kada smo ušli u trag i tom novom fantomu, on je odjednom bez traga nestao. Serijal tekstova o meni je imao čak četiri tačna podatka: ime i prezime, da sam Srbin iz Hercegovine, da imam stan u Beogradu i Podgorici i da imam penziju u Srbiji, a platu u Crnoj Gori. Niti jedan detalj istine u čitavom serijalu više nije postojao. Za mene je tada bilo (a i danas je) važnije voditi borbu protiv sprege službi, mafija i političara, nego li se „natezati“ sa mafijaškim medijima. To što za neke od njih predstavljam noćnu moru, je njihov problem, jer su ga sami proizveli. Njima se konačno mora stati na put.

A što se „Dnevnog Avaza“ i nekih medija u Crnoj Gori tiče, siguran sam da će se sve manje baviti generalom Grahovcem, jer će se njihovi poslodavci, u vremenu koje dolazi, morati suočiti sa, za njih, većim problemima. Jednom je Avaz objavio da sam komandovao zarobljavanjem Alije Izetbegovića na sarajevskom aerodromu. Niti sam imao ovlaštenja da to uradim, niti sam u to vrijeme fizički bio na teritiriji BiH. Ali, da sam u to vrijeme imao ovlasti za hapšenja, sigurno se ne bih dvoumio da najprije uhapsim Slobodana Miloševića, zatim Franju Tuđmana, a potom i Aliju Izetbegovića. Dnevni Avaz je to podastirao, vjerovatno iz unutrašnjih političkih potreba, koje se odnose na međusobnu političku borbu Bakir Izetbegović – Fahrudin Radončić.

I mnogi blogeri i komentatori po raznim portalima, komentarišući ove događaje, možda sasvim nesvjesno, a možda i svjesno dirigovano, vrše zbunjivanje građana, u čemu je istina najveći stradalnik.

Hvala Vam velika za ovaj razgovor.

RAZGOVOR VODIO: Bedrudin GUŠIĆ (458)

bedro-new-1002

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Here is English version:

After the dissolution of the WP (Warsaw Pact) and the USSR, it happened to us even greater adversity. In fact, several decades of doctrine and ideology of arms exports, Russia was replaced by an entirely new doctrine of the conquest of space, primarily due to geopolitical reasons. By connecting Cruel KGB members and newly tycoons, were created oligarchs, who are primarily in the service of Russian foreign policy. They set out offensive to export dirty capital. They corrupted powerful lobbying network in the West. They have managed to dirty capital registered in the West and to him as a “Western” returning to the Balkans, particularly in countries with a majority Orthodox population. This geopolitical trap many still did not understand ……It is true, I was the Assistant Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army for the Air Force and Air Defense since 01.01.1998. till 04.09.1999. Conviction and acquittal anyone (including Gen. Perisic) I can not comment on because I refused to be a witness for the prosecution and defense of any of them …… On behalf Yugoslav Army, I was appointed as a member of the delegation for the negotiations in Dayton. There I was exactly one hour and 40 minutes, when I was conveyed to President Milosevic's orders to come back, which I did. Guess why, but I would not comment on. I was sincerely sorry, because I would to my wonderfully rich personal history that I could write a conferee who stopped the bloody war, which, in the name of geopolitical goals, led the joint nationalists, government and military service, and the Mafia, in which the mass killed innocent people, outsmarted and diverted by the previously listed.…… Organised crime and corruption, have now become the top geopolitical tool.They are above that of nuclear assets. Mafia, as an army of organized crime and corruption, are trying to official state (including the great powers) takeover of politics and geopolitics ……. Serbia should be studied as a positive phenomenon. That is, regardless of the hard policy, which is mainly oriented towards the East, its people tend to have more democratic capacity for its European path. Fortunately, nearing the end of centuries of political wanderings of Serbia. I do not exclude the possibility that some of its pro-European politicians who lead the fight may be in mortal danger …… Serbia should be studied as a positive phenomenon. That is, regardless of the hard policy, which is mainly oriented towards the East, its people tend to have more democratic capacity for its European path. Fortunately, nearing the end of centuries of political wanderings of Serbia. I do not exclude the possibility that some of its pro-European politicians who lead the fight may be in mortal danger ……  Bosnia is part of the geopolitical trap, too. The situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina will be significantly begin to address in a positive direction when Serbia becomes stable on its European path. Such a God-given BiH to be an instrument in the geopolitical arena. Part of the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina wants to European integration, most of my compatriots are stuck for Serbia and Russia, a part of the Bosniak Corps is facing the Orient. Such a political environment that corresponds nationalists and clericalists, especially the various Mafia and brokers intelligence and security services …….
 Mr. Grahovac. You report that “evil come from the East,” that is, the KGB, not the West, played a crucial role in breaking the SFRY  (Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia). Could you explain to our readers the thesis?
  
GRAHOVAC: The ex-Yugoslav space is piling up for decades, the argument that the West will break up Yugoslavia. And at the time of its destruction, and still today, this thesis are constantly feeding. And then and today I was persisted in proving the opposite of the thesis. In fact, in all the parameters that define the objectives of the EU, from its formation to the day-to-day, and for the most fundamental principles on which the EU is based, the SFRY had many more. Just look at the two fundamental values: these are: anti-fascism and respect for diversity. So these are the core values ​​were the former Yugoslavia. It took the better way to upgrade political freedom and some areas relating to human rights.
 Yugoslavia was breaking up primarily by geopolitical story. Former USSR at any cost  would not leave the Balkans. KGB knew that the model of Yugoslavia in many elements can serve future EU model. They knew that Slovenia and Croatia (after deduction of any agreement by Serbia for the Restructuring of Relations of the Federation), nothing can stop on their road towards the EU. They knew about the Montenegrin and Serbian Orthodox Pan-Slavist mitomania of connectivity. They knew of the existence of three hegemonic project (Greater- Serbian, Greater-Croatian and Greater- Albanian). They knew about the connection between the military and civil service and the mafia in the Balkans. They knew that they can easily find the national leaders of the Serbs and Croats, which will on populism, as previously stated, to use for their authoritative ambitions.
All of the above has become a model of dissolution of Yugoslavia by the KGB. We should not ignore the fact that some politicians in the West with their conscious or unconscious actions, keep on hand the process of disintegrating Yugoslavia.
After the dissolution of the WP (Warsaw Pact) and the USSR, it happened to us even greater adversity. In fact, several decades of doctrine and ideology of arms exports, Russia was replaced by an entirely new doctrine of the conquest of space, primarily due to geopolitical reasons. By connecting Cruel KGB members and newly tycoons, were created oligarchs, who are primarily in the service of Russian foreign policy. They set out offensive to export dirty capital. They corrupted powerful lobbying network in the West. They have managed to dirty capital registered in the West and to him as a “Western” returning to the Balkans, particularly in countries with a majority Orthodox population. This geopolitical trap many still did not understand.
 Is it true that you were the Assistant Chief of the General Staff, Gen. Momcilo Perisic, and how do you comment on his, first conviction, and then acquitted in The Hague?
 
GRAHOVAC: Yes, it is true, I was the Assistant Chief of the General Staff of the Yugoslav Army for the Air Force and Air Defense since 01.01.1998. till 04.09.1999. Conviction and acquittal anyone (including Gen. Perisic) I can not comment on because I refused to be a witness for the prosecution and defense of any of them.There are two reasons for this: First, I am fighting against the wrong policies or procedures wrong person until they have authority and power. When they cease to be the authority and power, their wrong actions will address some of the other institutions, and the focus of my struggle I switching then to the wrong actions of others who then have the authority and power. Second, a public official or general defense witnesses were not necessary, if there is clean hands and a clear conscience. Then will he be able to defend himself.
 You were also in Dayton, fall of 1995. the negotiations for peace in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Have you participated in these negotiations, and how long have you kept in the U.S. military base in the state of Ohio?
GRAHOVAC: On behalf  of Yugoslav Army, I was appointed as a member of the delegation for the negotiations in Dayton. There I was exactly one hour and 40 minutes, when I was conveyed to President Milosevic's orders to come back, which I did. Guess why, but I would not comment on. I was sincerely sorry, because I would to my wonderfully rich personal history that I could write a conferee who stopped the bloody war, which, in the name of geopolitical goals, led the joint nationalists, government and military service, and the Mafia, in which the mass killed innocent people, outsmarted and diverted by the previously listed.
How, in fact, ran your career in the JNA since 1990. until your retirement, for example?
 
GRAHOVAC: Since 1988. to 1991, I was head of the system of air support Air Defense Command of AF (Air Force) and AD (Air Defense). The  commander of AF and Ad was general Tus, at that time.  From  09.11.1991. to 03. 31.1992. , I was commander of the Aeronautical Military Academy, which was then based in Sarajevo. On  April 1, 1992. (due to brutal retaliation against me) the position where I was located was off, so till 02.17.1994. I was engaged in schooling , but not formally appointed. According to the applicable regulations, who has no appointment for a period of 6 months, service shall be automatically terminated. My service was not stopped, even though I was almost two years without appointment, because they wanted to keep me under military control. I should point out that, from April 01.1992.  until the end of military service, I served in garrison in Belgrade. From February 17. 1994. (when Milosevic takes departure from the leadership of the RS and when he was intensified the negotiations with the U.S. administration), by decree of the president of Yugoslavia, Zoran Lilic, I was appointed the commander of the Air Force Corps and in that role I was up to December 31. 1997. My position of the Assistant Chief of Staff I have already explained. Ninth of April 1999.  was my last day in the Army. After that (during the war) until my retirement in the same year, I was relocated to one civilian building in Downtown of  Belgrade, without any contact with anyone from the Army.
Also, your significant assertion is that the mafia and corruption lead the states today. Is it a “specialty” only Balkan states or so at the global level?
 
GRAHOVAC: No, it's “specialty” Balkans. This is the sad reality of all undemocratic regimes and states in which power is irreplaceable. Organized crime and corruption have now become the top geopolitical tool. They are above that of nuclear assets. Mafia, as an army of organized crime and corruption, are trying to official state (including the great powers) takeover of politics and geopolitics. Because of the huge amounts of money at their disposal, they develop a very broad lobbying network, which now becomes the most dangerous corruption on the planet. They fail to develop networks and lobbying in the EU and in the area of North America. Therefore, undemocratic and authoritarian regimes, and manage to keep so long. Lobbying has become the foundation of corporate business, where speculative transactions are the main tools. We already have a nasty relationship between the non-democratic regimes, corporate business (with the banks as key players) and Mafia, as the army of organized crime and corruption. Neoliberal capitalism has become brutal, obscene and unsustainable. He is now a system of welfare for political structures that are coupled with organized crime and corruption.
Could you explain to our readers for your thesis on “civil” and “political consciousness” in Serbia and that will prevail on this geopolitical moment?
 
GRAHOVAC: Serbia is more than two centuries bisected and public and political. For all that time, its citizens are fighting to stay in the area where Serbia belongs geographically and civilization – that is Europe. At the same time its political elite was turned to the East. And SOC (Serbian Orthodox Church) was coherent with the political elite and was inextricably tied to the Russian Orthodox Church. Throughout the history there were political figures who sought to turn Serbia into Europe. Milos, Mihajlo, Milan and Aleksandar Obrenovic, Alexander II and Zoran Djindjic,  their political orientation toward Europe paid by head or by exile. Patriarch Varnava, who wanted reconciliation with the Holy See, he paid the same price.
It is less important whether Zoran Djindjic too close criminogenic structures or simply let those close to him. It is essential that he become a witness of  “the business” of these structures, but Mafia do not kiss witnesses. For many politicians in the Western Balkans, it may be significant warning.
 Serbia should be studied as a positive phenomenon. That is, regardless of the hard policy, which is mainly oriented towards the East, its people tend to have more democratic capacity for its European path. Fortunately, nearing the end of centuries of political wanderings of Serbia. I do not exclude the possibility that some of its pro-European politicians who lead the fight may be in mortal danger.
Do you watch over Serbia was still a “black hand” and who would be in the current moment there should especially watch out for (God forbid, I do not invoke neither there nor anywhere)?
 
GRAHOVAC: Unfortunately, it is watching. The risk may be politicians who lead an uncompromising struggle for the European integration of Serbia.
 How do you see the future of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it is a geopolitical point of view? The key question is, in fact, whether BiH survive and how?
 
GRAHOVAC:  Bosnia is part of the geopolitical trap, too. The situation in Bosnia and Herzegovina will be significantly begin to address in a positive direction when Serbia becomes stable on its European path. Such a God-given BiH to be an instrument in the geopolitical arena. Part of the population of Bosnia and Herzegovina wants to European integration, most of my compatriots are stuck for Serbia and Russia, a part of the Bosniak Corps is facing the Orient. Such a political environment that corresponds nationalists and clericalists, especially the various Mafia and brokers intelligence and security services.
For the survival of Bosnia and Herzegovina, it seems to me, there is only one formula. With the stabilization of Serbia (and it has started), it should be initiated a political process in BiH, which would contain three strategic task. First one, because of the fear for the survival of Bosnia and Herzegovina,  on the scene we have a general centralization of everything, and it produces different forms of tension to the shooting. It should be opened completely opposite process, in the general direction of decentralization and Sarajevo and Banja Luka and Mostar. Should constantly emphasize that power belongs to the people in local government and centralization of power costs a lot and it was paid by same citizens from the local government. Second one, only a tripartite BiH has prospects for survival, but there has to stress that every bureaucracy (and the entity it, too) costs a lot, and gives a little. It is important that people begin to notice it. Third one, BH is stable throughout its history lasted when it was under some form of community Yugo. Therefore, we need to launch a new regional initiative for the formation of Yugo region, composed of the states which emerged from Yugoslavia, not collapsing territorial and state-legal status of these countries. I am convinced  this is the most promising EU project since its inception. There would be up to a general relaxation of the Western Balkans in all areas of social and political life. Yugo regions (within the EU) would be a Millennium project, which would permanently stabilize the Western Balkans.
Bosnia has some politicians have, and its constitutional solution is more than a “straitjacket” on which it can not work and can not make significant strides in the electoral cycle, and because of that constitution. Who then can cut the Gordian knot of BH? The International Community the way it is, the EU, the USA …., who?
 
GRAHOVAC: Gordian knot of  B&H will cut its citizens, it will (in a process that I am advocating, and which I explained in the previous answer), they increasingly realize that it is for their good quality of life is the most important relationship in a bar, and that costs a lot of bureaucracy. Regardless of religion and nationality, they will be given to the development of their local government. They will take that entity and the central bureaucracy that just leeches sucking their lifes. Citizens will become resistant to the populism that produce quasi-politicians, nationalists, clericals and mobsters. In such an open process, citizens will have the support of the EU and the U.S., and the previously mentioned, finally start to leave Bosnia.
Milorad Dodik, in addition to almost daily denials of BiH, advocates for its demilitarization. Will eventually cover such stories BiH membership in NATO and by then whether they are just wishful thinking, especially in the context of some of the events at the end of last century in which they participated, and countries in the region? To be clear: how about demilitarization only  Bosnia, not Serbia, Montenegro and Croatian, for example?
 
GRAHOVAC: The term of “demilitarization” is often used in the ex-Yugoslav space. Unfortunately, this term is not sufficiently understood. On the ex-Yugoslav space is significantly reduced the numbers of military assets, although there is room for reduction. In my belief it is not a criterion for the concept of militarization and demilitarization. The essence is in something else. Specifically, we in the Western Balkans have a very high degree of militancy spirit of citizens – civilians, especially as it is expressed by some politicians, clericalists and as a rule, all nationalists. And all of them are in our area too. If we add an unknown quantity of weapons and ammunition that people have, and it is beyond the control of the state, then there is reason for concern. The old formula was that wars do not produce good soldiers, but militant civilians. And the occurrence of this form of war, appearances are the same: first appear priests (clergy of various religions), the guns and in the end thieves. All that we have had or still have. When it starts to recognize some space for excess policy, religion surplus, surplus weapons and surplus social frustration is amplified, there are the reasons for concern. Bosnia, unfortunately, is in excess of everything. Demilitarization of the region (the way I mean), will end up joining our region into the EU and NATO. We should not have the dilemma that this will happen soon.
You also advocates for redefining the role of terrorism. Why do you stand for and whether that term is any prefix? Who is supposed so far?
 
GRAHOVAC: It is necessary to redefine the classical theory of terrorism. Terrorism is now able to be treated as political or religious. In the coming time, terrorism will increasingly be a tool in organized crime and corruption. Why? Because it was kind of turmoil just perfect for extending the Mafia. Because, when it happens somewhere terrorist act, the supporting condition is almost always identical: the government is currently confused what should be done, people are scared, and the outcome of the battle is uncertain. Do just that, not a setting for extending the Mafia? So, in future to terrorism should be seen as an act of organized mafia and politicians associated with them, with the aim of their political survival and their mafia business. Quantity of terrorism (the classical conception) will be reduced, but it will be one that is associated with organized crime and corruption, I am sure, will increase.
 “Anti-fascism was expelled from the Serbian ethnos”, you stated  recently  on the bh. one television. Who reheats fascism among the Serbian people in Bosnia and retrograde ideas among members of the other constituent peoples in Bosnia and Herzegovina?
 
GRAHOVAC: This is the resultant effect of the manufacturer of the war that happened, and who had the geopolitical goals. We have witnessed (among Montenegrins) had no such anti-fascist legacy as it had Serbs from Bosnia and Herzegovina. And anti-fascism is (as I have already pointed out) the fundamental European values. This value somebody very deliberately converted  (in order to build populist politics) into its opposite. Neofascism endangers ethnicity in Bosnia, where I belong.
I dare to claim that our Muslims – Bosniaks were classified into most emancipated people in the Muslim world (according to the criteria of European and North American civilization). And here (for the same reasons) the inversion was happened. In this substrate today in BiH there are drastic cultural contrasts. We already have the appearance of which is to be feared.
Our Croats from Bosnia decades were in effect for the best entrepreneurs in the European space. They had an extremely high degree of mutual solidarity. Today is one of them grew a number of typical tycoon, and a larger number of the population are living very sparingly. Their traditional mutual solidarity has disappeared. And this is one of the indicators that we have in Bosnia and socio-political and cultural dislocation. Let's look at one more parameter. Bosniaks and Croats are mostly angry with Milorad Dodik. I'm sure he will in the future face its responsibility greater intensity. But, we also have the fact that these same Croats and Muslims complain they do not have their “Dodik.” Is not that an indication of political dislocation and general hypocrisy? All this will be beneficial to finish if BiH is that I went through in the answers explained.
What happened to social democracy in BiH, and the countries of the Eastern Balkans?
 
GRAHOVAC: On the entire ex-Yugoslav space we have a problem with lots of social democratic orientation. Each SDP is stuck to one of the party that has complicity with organized crime and corruption, and who has authority and is able to win it over. Because SDP don't  have large membership numbers and the electorate, they, as a rule, do not go alone in the elections, but they are almost always in coalition with the parties, in which the most important moves retreat tycoons. In order the parties (which are tied to organized crime and corruption) to simulate  democracy and the supposed left orientation, allowing alleged Social Democrats to benefit significantly. How? Almost all members of the SDP are, almost, officials from local governments to the top of the state. The sad fact is that the ex-Yugoslav area is free of any political party, to protect the interests of workers and peasants. Social Democratic Party in the Western Balkans today have the highest degree of responsibility for such a large amount of organized crime and corruption.
Daily Avaz wrote that you were Milosevic's general, referring to the text in Podgorica “Republic” from 2006. What has actually happened and whether you react or make a denial and to whom?
 
GRAHOVAC: While Milosevic was the authority and power, through the institutions of the system (and after the cessation of active military service and public), I led the fight against this policy. Then, many politically controlled media were writing about me as a traitor of the Serbian people and the NATO mercenaries. They objected to me to have been so strongly opposed Milosevic's war policy. After the ouster of Milosevic from power, I walked into an open struggle against coupling politicians and the mafia. Since then, these same media  attacked me and labeled me as Milosevic's general. Logically, since these same media just changed sponsors. The media group is entirely a function of the political elites who are associated with organized crime and corruption. When I press her public appearances, one of them (mostly in Montenegro), immediately, in clearly defined media, the text appears someone in Sarajevo, Belgrade and Novi Sad. The contents of these texts is almost identical to that which I was publicly labeled General Pavkovic, Prvoslav Davinic and Vukasin Maras. From today, all of them are aloof, but their lyrics, which are manufactured in the military security services, have become permanent mafia property. One group of authors of such texts is identified. One group of these media  I public called  them incubators of neo-fascism in the Western Balkans.
When the Montenegrin government wanted to deal with his critics, appeared phantom leaf “Republic”, in which he performed in the dirtiest way muddying critics Montenegrin authorities. At first it could not be determined who was behind the newspaper. When it was entered in their track, “Republic” has suddenly disappeared, and appeared in newspaper “Audience.” In that paper continued even messier muddying critics Montenegrin authorities. When we entered the trail and this new phantom, it suddenly disappeared without a trace. The series of articles on me had four correct information: full name, I'm a Serb from Herzegovina, I have a flat in Belgrade and Podgorica, and I have a pension in Serbia, and salary in Montenegro. Single detail of truth in the whole series, no longer existed. For me at the time was (and still is) more important to fight the coupling services, mafia and politicians, rather than to “strain” the media mafia. The fact that for some of them is a nightmare, is their problem, because it produced themselves. They must finally get in the way.
And as for the “Daily Avaz” and some media in Montenegro is concerned, I'm sure it will be less to deal with General Grahovac, because it will be their employers, in time to come, will have to deal with, for them, the bigger the problems. Once Avaz reported that I commanded the capture of Alija Izetbegovic at Sarajevo airport. I neither had the authority to do so, even at the time I was not physically within the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina. But that at the time I had the authority to arrest, I certainly would never hesitated to first arrest of Slobodan Milosevic, Franjo Tudjman, then, and then Alija Izetbegovic. Daily Avaz is piling up, probably from internal political needs, which are related to the internal political struggle Bakir Izetbegovic – Fahrudin Radoncic.
And many bloggers and commentators on various sites, commenting on these events, perhaps quite unconsciously, and perhaps consciously orchestrated, performed confuse people, what is the true greatest victim.
Thank you very much for this interview.
Interview conducted Bedrudin Gusic (458)